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For non-Southern Cross and Southern Cross members to talk about World of Warcraft

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Riedacher
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Post by Riedacher » 25 Sep 2007, 21:17

i think if he keeps light up he can't do the judgement that gives everyone 3% crit.

imo if all dpsers get 3% crit it doesn't matter if he's doing only half as much damage as the other dpsers, and he's doing more than that.
PUNKKID IS MY MAGE

Vanit
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Post by Vanit » 25 Sep 2007, 21:21

Thanks for the support ried.
Dankyn wrote:kill yourself

Tyrius wrote:not worth the trouble.

MJ wrote:lol ret


Are people blind? These are few of a vast many comments that have been thrown at me lately, and people wonder why I'm not 'chilled out' in this thread. I haven't made a hostile action or comment at anyone to advocate my opinion on retribution and I find myself continually attacked and ridiculed over it. I'm not naming any names (aside from the ones above that have made it obvious), but the opposition to retribution is not the kind, smiley, criticism people might like to think it is. I have every reason not to be chilled out. -_-

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Azmodeus
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Post by Azmodeus » 25 Sep 2007, 21:26

Damage Meters, SW Stats, and all other ingame meters are just bad and rarely 100% accurate given the way the they are calculated.

It may give you a "ball park figure" but should always be the last point of reference for anyone who is analysing an encounter.
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Tyrius
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Post by Tyrius » 25 Sep 2007, 21:27

ret is terrible, no guild on blackrock will recruit you to replace one of their usual/reliable dps.

you might get into a guild as holy.

gl.

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Selphie
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Post by Selphie » 25 Sep 2007, 21:32

Vanit wrote:Thanks for the support ried.
Dankyn wrote:kill yourself

Tyrius wrote:not worth the trouble.

MJ wrote:lol ret


Are people blind? These are few of a vast many comments that have been thrown at me lately, and people wonder why I'm not 'chilled out' in this thread. I haven't made a hostile action or comment at anyone to advocate my opinion on retribution and I find myself continually attacked and ridiculed over it. I'm not naming any names (aside from the ones above that have made it obvious), but the opposition to retribution is not the kind, smiley, criticism people might like to think it is. I have every reason not to be chilled out. -_-
i'm fairly sure that most people's comments have been made purely because of the way you're handling things. people have to respec constantly to specs they don't want to, but they put up with it

i'm sure there's lots of druids out there who are tanks, but want to spec resto, and vice versa. same probably goes for tanks who want to spec for dps in raids.
the point is, everyone sticks to the role that is required of them. if they are asked to respec for a particular reason - raid progression, more utility, whatever, they just do it.
the mages have been placed under a similar situation - recently we were asked to respec again to frost, even though some of us didn't want to, but we did it anyway for the sake of raid progression, and because we were told to. you however, have taken it to the extreme, and quit the guild because you can't spec (and take loot) exactly how you want to.

i'm not trying to say you should keep playing a spec you 100% dislike.
however, handling it this way definitely isn't going to make you any more popular.

furthermore, wasn't part of your argument for speccing ret dps that "healer specs don't get praised for doing a good job, only paid out when they do a bad job?" how is speccing ret going to fix that problem anyway? in any case, raiding is a group effort. its not often that one particular person gets attention in that way, regardless of whether they're on top of dps, heals or whatever.
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Vanit
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Post by Vanit » 25 Sep 2007, 21:53

Selphee wrote:i'm not trying to say you should keep playing a spec you 100% dislike.
however, handling it this way definitely isn't going to make you any more popular.
I don't see any other way I could've handled it that wouldn't have resulted in me waiting miserably for 2.3 for the possibilty I might be able to try ret in a month or 2. Doesn't sound very promising does it? Infact it sounds like my concerns are just being brushed aside with an empty promise. Furthermore is it worth the guilds time to keep giving me heal gear if I'm to spec ret when its deemed viable? Does that mean I should stay heal spec and not loot any gear at all until 2.3? Neither sounds like a very smart solution. The best solution I think is the one I've chosen, where I point out that the guild and myself do not see eye to eye on the matter, and I'm probably best off pursuing my goals somewhere more appropriate.

Selphee wrote:furthermore, wasn't part of your argument for speccing ret dps that "healer specs don't get praised for doing a good job, only paid out when they do a bad job?" how is speccing ret going to fix that problem anyway?
My argument was that my dislike for staying holy is completely ignored and my ambitions are insulted. Regardless of my personal feelings on if what I'm doing is fun or not I'm being told to effectively 'stfu and heal'. I will not raid in that environment anymore.

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Nicrob
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Post by Nicrob » 25 Sep 2007, 21:55

walloftext crits nicrob for over 9000
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The Dude wrote:I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.

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dakiean
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Post by dakiean » 25 Sep 2007, 22:01

Nicrob wrote:walloftext crits nicrob for over 9000


walloftext crits nicrob for over 9000 (Crushing)<- as he's drunk =P
[Dakiean] - [Aeragon] - [Vaeln] - [Murder]
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Dankyn
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Post by Dankyn » 25 Sep 2007, 23:34

i see u havent killed urself yet, how unfortunate

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Tyrius
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Post by Tyrius » 25 Sep 2007, 23:49

Dankyn wrote:i see u havent killed urself yet, how unfortunate

soangrydankyn

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Xga
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Post by Xga » 25 Sep 2007, 23:57

Vanit i think selphee has a point in that it could have been handled a little better. Sure, we all knew you liked ret and would like to use it at some point, but never once (at least not with me present) did we ever hear you say "I’m at the point where I don't want to raid as holy anymore, I want to play ret from now on" etc.

Anyway as far as you raiding as ret, you'll have a couple of raids to see what kind of dps you can pump out. On the other hand, I understand your utility, which is why despite copping several slaps in the face from various raiders (you know who you are) for bringing you, I intend to bring you again at least another couple of times (depending on your performance).

So what utility right? Ret pally actually reminds me of my totem of wrath. Go search the wow shaman forums for it and you'll see half the population says it's a useless talent, while the other half can see the real value of it. +3% spell crit, and +3% spell hit to all party members may not seem like much, but take a look at the bigger picture: +15% spell crit and +15% spell hit to the group - quite huge if you think about it, given that 1% crit or 1% hit is theoretically equivalent to 1% dps as long as you are not already at the cap (and pretty much no one is).

Lets see what the ret pally brings in utility. Judging crusader gives the entire raid +3% crit chance. So generally we have 14 dps in a given raid (25 total - 4 tanks - 7 healers). Now lets take away another 4 of those dps as an example and assume they wont benefit so much as other dps classes from the crit (eg. spriests, affliction locks). We now have 10 dps receiving +3% crit - that's a whopping 30% crit rate, and theoretically a 30% dps increase over the entire raid (depending on crit damage bonuses). Not only that, but his entire group is receiving +2% damage from improved aura, meaning a flat +10% dps increase for that group.

Sure, this won't always be how things turn out. For example there may be a fight where seal of light is needed constantly. We then have 2 options: we can have the ret pally keep crusader up and have another paladin keep light on the target, or have a ret paladin effortlessly keep sol up, which while causing an overall dps loss, will make sure our healer isn't distracted and missing heals that may be the difference between a tank’s life and death.

I know this is a wall of text crits you for 345976345 crushing, etc etc situation, but hopefully you can see why i'm bothering with a ret pally at all. Ried nailed it to the wall when he mentioned that there’s more to ret dps than just that paladin's damage output. I understand that because the same is true for shamans and their totems.

Lastly, this is by no means saying that vanit will be able to stay as ret in raids. He still has to prove he can contribute enough to the raid's success over the next couple of runs to do so, as what I’ve explained here is merely theory and may work differently in practice. This is just an explanation of how I see the bigger picture.

edit: just thought of something else. in the situation where judgement of light is needed, all that needs to happen is another pally judges it once, then the ret pally's crusader strike will refresh that AND judgement of the crusader (if i read the tooltip correctly). prosauce?
Last edited by Xga on 26 Sep 2007, 01:18, edited 3 times in total.
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MJ
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Post by MJ » 26 Sep 2007, 00:00

lol your arguements are almost as bad as ret dps, almost

edit: i think panel 5 from the image linked in this thread sums up why some of us don't feel the need to write a wall of text here.
Last edited by MJ on 26 Sep 2007, 00:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Tyrius
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Post by Tyrius » 26 Sep 2007, 00:06

IF MY DPS CAME FROM MY TEARS IT WOULD BE ENDLESS.

ESPECIALLY IF CYCLONE WAS INVOLVED.

ENDLESS I TELL YOU.

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Xga
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Post by Xga » 26 Sep 2007, 00:08

MJ wrote:lol your arguements are almost as bad as ret dps, almost

So i spend time typing a massive post trying to explain my thoughts only to get swept aside by 1 sentence. If you're going to oppose what I've said, you could at least have the decency to argue why instead of replying with what is essentially "lol your post sux".
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MJ
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Post by MJ » 26 Sep 2007, 00:10

xga wrote:
MJ wrote:lol your arguements are almost as bad as ret dps, almost

So i spend time typing a massive post trying to explain my thoughts only to get swept aside by 1 sentence. If you're going to oppose what I've said, you could at least have the decency to argue why instead of replying with what is essentially "lol your post sux".


i was referring to vanit

edit: also you would have spent your time better d/ling and watching "a night in paris"

edit edit: the edit was for xga

fake edit edit: i was only told what "a night in paris" was on the weekend, i lol'd... /crawls out from under a rock
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